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Re: orion 1st BCE generation

     Responding again to Stephen Goranson

 	On 4Q468g, the visible spelling--second letter waw--is also not a point in
favor of "Ptollas," which (as Doudna points out) is not spelled with a waw in
surviving examples.
     I have no particular expectations of an early C14 date for a 4QM text.
The paleography of 4QM fragments indicates some of them predate 1QM, but
paleography is no indicator of absolute date, as anyone who has seriously
studied the flawed data underlying Cross's system would agree.
      Dierk Vanderberg claimed there was no Roman army imitation in the second
century BCE, but it is quite apparent (especially in light of his last
posting) that he has not read my articles, nor the bibliography I cite
(especially Bar-Kochva on retraining of Seleucid elite troops in Roman
warfare) and his explanation of the passage I cited from Polybius describing
Seleucid troops with Roman arms in the parade at Daphne in 165 BCE is quite ad
hoc and unconvincing, apparently based on his reluctance to admit to Roman
practices being imitated in the second century rather than a familiarity with
Polybius.  To my knowledge there is no archaeological evidence on Maccabean
weaponry (whether Roman or Hellenistic).  The evidence is at this point purely
literary.  As I earlier posted Dr. Vanderberg, literary evidence (1 Macc. 8:1)
arguably deriving from a close and knowledgeable associate of Judas Maccabee
attests to his high regard for the Roman military machine.  I've put my
military and historical arguments on the Maccabean background of the War
Scroll in print and so far you have neither directly addressed them nor
proposed an alternate understanding of this important text.  The War Scroll
should be studied and discussed on its own terms - not in reference to
irrelevant tangents such as Hanukkah.
     With regard to Hanukkah, I asked a very specific question, "Can you cite
any evidence of the alleged religious character of Hanukkah that is not
anachronistic for the period we are considering?"  By your reluctance to
directly respond I take it you have no such evidence.  Let me ask you a second
question.  In what specific texts do you expect to see a reference to Hanukkah
which is lacking?
    Let me point out that Hanukkah was not a Pilgrim festival; work was not
forbidden on Hanukkah; nor did Hanukkah have associated with it prescribed
offerings or sacrifices.  This last is especially significant, since the
Temple Scroll and related calendar texts listing festivals list precisely
those festivals for which certain offerings *were* required.  These consisted
of the Biblical holy days and certain auxiliary days (those for the wood
offerings and for new wine) in which certain temple offerings were required
for the sect.  We would not expect Hanukkah to appear in such lists.  Hanukkah
was a lesser holiday that may be technically classed as a "day of joy," a day
for celebration in which fasting and funeral orations were forbidden.  The DSS
contain no such list of "days of joy" in which Hanukkah might be expected to
appear.  The Megillat Ta'anit, in which Hanukkah does appear, was precisely
such a list.  This list contains dates of 36 civil holidays, of primarily
national significance, such as dates of various Hasmonean Era military
victories, such as the conquest of Beth Shean by John Hyrkanus, etc.  If you
want to further discuss why you think the absence of Hanukkah from the DSS is
significant, some actual research and insight into e.g. Hanukkah or the
calendar texts might be more valuable to the list than vague generalities
we've all heard before.  I suspect a few list members are disappointed at the
low level of awareness of the rich history of the festival that our discussion
has so far exhibited.  Philip Goodman, The Hanukkah Anthology (Jerusalem:
Jewish Publication Society, 1976) is a good starting point for the culturally

     Happy Hanukkah to all.

     Russell Gmirkin