[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: orion-list Investigates the 3 Sects, Invests 3 Years, Joins the Pharisees

At 12:11 AM 02/15/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Moshe Shulman now makes quite a refutation.  He is telling
>us that Josephus could ***not*** make a determination of 
>what he wanted to study and what he wanted to do in a year. (!)

One of the problems here is that every person will naturally compare his
upbringing to that of those he studies. The problem this causes is that it
may not work. Looking at the DSS (especially 4QMMT and CD) where there are
complex halacos mentioned, indicates that they had 'systems'. In religious
systems based on legal codes (Judaism, Islam) you have a familiarity from
your home upbringing, but to 'learn' what things are about takes time.
Josephus claims to be taking 3+ years to do something that he didn't have
from his upbringing. This is absurd. 

>1) It presupposes that we, or Moshe Shulman, knows how
>much Josephus "really should know" before Josephus is
>satisfied in knowing which spiritual course of action to take.

Had he not made claims of being a learned Pharisee at other times, I would
be in total agreement here. Obviously it takes less time to reject
soemthing you don't want then to learn about it. 

>I submit that we have no idea what a 16 year old man of
>Josephus's background was "determining" before he
>decided to live with Bannus.  In an earlier day when I
>was deciding which church to attend, I spent considerably
>LESS time than 3 months to decide that I **definitely**
>did **not** want to be a Jehovah's Witness or a Christian
>Scientist.  And it took only a few Sunday visits for me to say,
>what a wonderful teacher this minister is, I think I'll
>keep attending here.

Again this doesn't compare in that he was probably somwhat familiar with
the groups but seems to want to learn more in depth.

>2) Moshe Shulman also pressupposes that neither Josephus or
>anyone else might decide to study in the Wilderness until
>***much*** more time is invested in the exploration process.
>And while Moshe is pointing with one hand, he is obscuring
>the other the fact Josephus was actually choosing every new day
>in the Wilderness - - do I stay?  Do I go?  Can I take one
>more day of this vegetarian food?  Are there enough blessings
>in this life I'm living to stay another month, week or even hour?
>3 years is a very long time.... and the "plain interpretation" of
>this part of Josephus is that he valued the study of Essene
>spirituality enough to give three years of his "study" to it
>"with zeal".

Considering the DSS, I think there is a bit more to being an Essene then
liking a sermon.

>And 3), Moshe's viewpoint presupposes that, after the 3 years
>were up, when he had had his fill, that we cannot presume he
>moved on to the less grueling life of being a Pharisee (since
>he was just too spiritually oriented and End Days oriented to
>be satisfied with the Sadducee point of view)....  Can we not presume
>he spent years further deepening his appreciation of the Pharisaic
>viewpoint.  And eventually, at the end of his life, what do you
>suppose he eventually was?  Did he remain a pharisee long after
>the destruction of the Temple?

A simple reaing indicates after the three years his 'formal learning' ended.

moshe shulman mshulman@NOSPAMix.netcom.com    718-436-7705
CHASSIDUS.NET - Yoshav Rosh            http://www.chassidus.net
Outreach Judaism                       http://www.outreachjudaism.org/
ICQ# 52009254

For private reply, e-mail to Moshe Shulman <mshulman@ix.netcom.com>
To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to majordomo@panda.mscc.huji.ac.il with
the message: "unsubscribe Orion." For more information on the Orion Center
or for Orion archives, visit our web site http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il.