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orion-list Dierk's Pacifism of Essenes

Comments as follows.......

Dierk says: 
> You think on Khirbet Qumran as a camp described in the [War] scroll...?
> Well, the connection is utmost seductive but completely wrong:
> A War Scroll camp is either a temporary fortified field-camp or the 
> army in  battle formation. Fortresses or outposts are aside the authors

> interests;

Brooks:  My point about the term camps does not come from the War
Scroll... it comes from the use of the term in the **rule** scrolls where
the term    CAMP(S)   refers to **existing** communities of DSS members.
I think this just highlights the nature of the Essenes as being derived
a militaristic orientation.

Dierk says:
> siege tactics are consequently not part of the tactica. Moreover, 
> the paper
> doesn't even show basic knowledge of the logistics

Brooks:  The War Scroll does not have to be a good military
treatise for my assumptions to function.  Perhaps logistics is less
of an issue when you have Angels on your side?

Dierk says:
> Thus the reason for the absence of women and lames from the camps 
> should be clear.

Brooks:  It remains **unclear** why these groups would be restricted
from membership as well.  It doesn't say the rule scrolls does not say
they can't be living with these people (after all, aging members of the
community would certainly turn up lame with each passing year).  It
is the War Scroll that excludes them from the "war ready" camps.

Dierk says:
> > The point I was making is that if the Egyptian Therapeutae allowed
> > women to participate as "equals" (or near equals?), while the 
> Essenes had a reputation for keeping women separate.
> Show me an Essene Rule of Marriage first!

Brooks:  I think the reason there is no known "scroll rule" on marriage
is because it was **not** specifically rejected.  It is only through the
writings of Josephus (an Essene) and a few others, that we have been
informed that at least one group of Essenes do **not** encourage

This whole thing can get confusing.  I said the Essenes had a
for "separating" the females.  Certainly the Therapeutae's "reputation"
was to allow more mingling with "active" female spiritualists.... while
the Essenes "reputation" was to avoid women as the source of all
male troubles.  In fact, the Therapeutae **could** have forced separate
living conditions on female Therapeauts (I suppose).  And while Josephus
and Hippolytus insist that **some** Essenes did not marry, it is my 
contention that even the the non-marrying Essenes (except for perhaps
the very highest Essene officials?), either lived with "sisters" in their
household (to manage the household), or lived in camps where Essene-
related females lived in their own "separated" tents.

Dierk says:
> > This "separateness" may have still have:
> > 1] allowed for all female households in and amongst the
> > male households, or
> Pure assumption.

Brooks:  Which side of this argument do you want?  Either you
DO believe women lived in the Essene camps, or you don't.
Which is it?

> > 2] which allowed living with women as "married Essenes" for those
> > Essenes who fit that category
> Josephus theory of relativity...

Brooks:  Great!  I found someone who thinks Josephus is incorrect
about something.  In contrast, I think Hippolytus is right on target, and
he says it too.

> >, or
> > 3] which allowed living with "sisters" and "mothers" in an unwed
> > state but excluding them from the spiritual function of the
> > community.
> That's a good summary of Gospel lifestyle, but we're talking about a
> militaristic union, for which peace was understood in negative 
> fashion,
> simply as the absence of war.

Brooks:  My point about the lifestyle of living with "sisters" and
"mothers" as described in the N.T. is that this was probably not an
invention of Jesus and probably reflects a lifestyle that comes out
of an ascetic "matrix" that tries to minimize the role of marriage....
..... which just happens to fit our knowledge of the Essene point of
view very well.

> Merry Xmas and a less terrible New Millennium.
> Dierk

Happy holidays to you.....

George Brooks
Tampa, FL
For private reply, e-mail to George Brooks <george.x.brooks@juno.com>
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