[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: orion Second-Temple holidays: 15 of Av

    [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set]
    [Your display is set for the "ISO-8859-8" character set]
    [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly]

In the first place, Judges 21:19 does not advance Rabbi Brody's argument since the text gives no date for this festival.  My own guess, (on other grounds which are not relevant here), would be that it is probably Succot but there are certainly no textual grounds to connect this to Av. 15.  B. Taanit 30b is of course late (even compared to Josephus who is 1st century CE and who, in contrast to the authorities cited in that Gemara, actually saw the Temple system in operation)and consists of a number of Amoraim (3td century CE on) who are guessing (Ele tet-vav b'Av, mai he?)on why the Mishnah should mention this date.  The laundry list of events from the Exodus to 135 CE given by different authorities would support this assumption.  The circumstance that these authorities are in Iraq, far from the scene of the Mishnah, does not add weight to their guesses.

                                                                                                                                          Steve Oren
                                                                                                                                           Chicago, IL

> Thank you Paul Mandel for your letter 0n 10:20 01/01/99 +0200. You wrote:
> >
> >However, despite many modern references to the contrary, the 15th of Av was
> >not any more 'carnivalistic' than other holidays, and was not, in essence,
> >a "Sadie Hawkins Day":  The only references to this day in early,
> >pre-Amoraic times (besides the final mishna in Ta`anit, also: Mishna
> >Ta'anit 4, 5; Megillat Ta`anit; and Josephus, Wars 2, 17, 6 [425]) all
> >point to the major aspect of this day as being the main day for 'korban
> >eitzim' - the Wood Offering
> The celebrations of boys and
> >girls in Jerusalem mentioned in connection with this day (and on the Day of
> >Atonement) should not be seen as the SOURCE of the holiday, but rather as
> >examples given of popular joy on these days.  (The marriage traditions
> >relating to this day are of later date, and are most probably not
> >historically attested.)
> >Paul (Pinchas) Mandel
> >
> How can I sit quietly when such claims are made concerning the 15th of Av?
> Let's start with Judges 21:19:
> "and they said:  here is a Festival of G-d in Shiloh, from year to year..."
> The Talmud Bavli [Ta'anit 30b] lists six separate reasons for rejoicing on
> this day, the first of which [chronologically]
> is:  "the day that the dying ceased in the wilderness",  while a recurrent
> theme is the reunification of the People of Israel:
> -the day that the tribes were permitted to inter-marry [nullification of
> the prohibition from the days of the daughters of Zelophechad in the
> generation of Joshua]
> -[and similarly, and this is the mention in Judges] the day that it was
> permitted to inter-marry with the tribe of Benjamin
> [after the near extermination of the tribe as a consequence of the
> "pilegesh bGivah"
> -the day that Hoshea ben Aleh removed the roadblocks that prohibited
> Pilgrimige to the Temple in Jerusalem [in the last generation before the
> Assyrian conquest of the North]
> Reunification and reconciliation is a very important positive theme which
> returns generation after generation, and does not conflict with the wood
> offering which is brought on the same day.
> Menachem Brody
> Machon Helkat Hasadeh
> Elon Moreh