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RE: orion An Archeleus-era historical allusion?
I have now had a chance to read the new JJS article, though not enough time
to follow up as many of its references as I intend. Thanks to Broshi,
Yardeni, and E. Eshel for the article. Thanks to Greg Doudna and Russ
Gmirkin for intelligent questions and comments on it. Dierk Vandenberg's
dismissal of the potential historical interest of this fragment appears
rash and ill-advised. Though I have disagreed with Greg and Russ a time or
two-- or more :-) --their comments here are certainly helpful.
On the other hand, Greg: your hypothesis. Sure, let's stipulate
that the so-called "Herodian" hands did not commence precisely at the
moment in which Herod took power--either de facto or de jure. Though I
think I'm not alone in considering your "one-generation production"
proposal already falsified, since you call for precise dates, how about
providing the year your proposed one generation began and the year it ended.
On 4Q468g, I'm still making up my mind about it. Here are some
preliminary questions and comments. The pe is not the clearest in the
world; a letter rather than a space could, hypothetically, have preceded
the pe, though I think that is not likely, and so on...but, for know, I
accept Ada Yardeni's transcription as plausible. How many fragments are
identifiably remnants of 4Qhistorical text B? The proposed paleographic
date of late first century BCE or early first century CE (presumably
Yardeni's evaluation) should be noted.
Samuel Krauss, Griechische und Lateinische Lehnwoerter im Talmud,
Midrasch und Targum (2 vols.; Berlin: S. Calvary, 1898) may be worth a
look, even though it draws on later texts. Krauss, e.g., in vol. 2, p. 5
notes Abtalion, known from Mishna Avot I, 10 (and m and tosefta 'Eduyoth I,
3 and bYoma 71b). There is bibliography there and in Nachtraege p. 595,
which I haven't deciphered nor seen yet. Krauss lists Greek Ptollion =
Pollion. Is some metathesis possible here? (Just asking, not asserting.)
Besides Krauss, Broshi didn't cite E. Eshel "Personal Names in the Qumran
Sect," These are the Names... ed. A. Demsky et al. (Ramat Gan: Bar Ilan U.
1997) 39-52; M. Ohana and M. Heltzer, The Extra-Biblical Tradition of
Hebrew Personal Names (U. Haifa, 1978, in Hebrew); among places which may
provide a clue, as well as classics references. (Duke library doesn't own
the first installment of the Materials for the Dictionary/Israel
Academy/Historical Dictionary of the Hebrew Language, which was on
microfiche, and I think may be on CD now.)
If the text does relate to the killing which Broshi suggests, it
should perhaps be placed not at Passover 4 BC but 3 BC, if A.
Kushnir-Stein, "Another Look at Josephus' Evidence for the Date of Herod's
Death," Scripta Classica Israelica 14 (1995) 73-86 is right. The fire
dating as described by Jodi Magness in DSD 2 could be relevant, if the
destruction in Jerusalem was contemporary to that at Qumran.
The second letter in the name looks to me more likely a waw than a
yod, by length and by comparison to other letters on the fragment; if so,
Greg's suggested alternate name is difficult.
These, admittedly, are provisional remarks.