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Re: orion 4QSon of God,...Christians?

I will quickly say that my post is not about 4QSon of God.

But I would like to know by what definition are we operating by here in
referring to those responsible for these texts as "Christian"?

Are we to assume that because they may have been messianic, that they were also
"Christian". Even if they were part of an ancient movement or community related
in some way to a man only later described as "Christos," I see little that
would indicate a relationship to Christianity, especially as it became Pauline
and even more so as it developed into a very non-Judaic belief system later.
Should we ignore the latitude of Jewish sectarianism of those times to box
everything into Christian, Jewish, Pagan (!), or even "Jewish-Christian" (which
to me sounds more enigmatic than "who wrote the scrolls?" or
"Muslim-Christian").  Essene/`Ossim Messianics, Yeshua(ite) sectarians,
N'tsarim/Nazoraean, whatever, but "Christian" should be reserved for the
Paulistic or gentile type (re)interpretations coming later, and even then some
wide generalization is involved.

I have noticed that scholars who admit the inaccuracy of "Christian" or
Jewish-Christian regarding those "of Qumran" or those more obviously tied to
Yeshua's sect, still continue to use for conventions' sake. Why? Everything
else seems to be held to minute scrutiny around here. Let's have a contest to
give all these sects more accurate names.

Tim Phillips


David Crowder wrote:

> On April 2, Stephen Goranson wrote:
>   >In the Minneapolis Star Tribune, 28 March (searchable via
> http://www.startribune.com  ), "Research Challenges Dead Sea Scrolls
> Origin," Neil Altman and David Crowder wrote that 4QSon of God (4Q246)
> cannot be a first century BCE text, because, they propose, Jews then would
> not or could not have written such a text. They claim it is a later,
> Christian text.


>    In its current form, one article that appeared under Neil Altman's name
> and now runs with mine as well, "Were the Dead Sea Scrolls Written by
> Christians?" makes 20 points in support on that contention --  some minor
> and some major.  Some we have supported at length, as allowed by space
> limitations, and in other cases we have restated what others have written
> or what is commonly known.


>    Well even if our assertion (that the presence of red ink in the scrolls
> and Torah texts in particular indicates the scrolls were not produced until
> later by Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah) is wrong -- and we're not
> conceding it is -- that wouldn't impact the other issues Altman has raised
> since 1992, many of which I have offered here.
>   Goranson has raised a number of other challenges in recent months that
> Altman has answered on paper to me.  I haven't transcribed them and posted
> them here, but I shall try to do so this weekend.
>   David Crowder
>   El Paso