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Re: orion Not "Hassideans/Essenes"

   Sorry sir if I should disagree with your conclusions. First my
"Hassidean/Essenes" was a reference to two different groups that I suspect
had a hand in the development of the material found in Qumran. But my
proofs cannot be presented without an excavation report. 
   The commentaries reflecting the Righteous Teacher/Wicked Priest Drama, 
I believe to have been stories of the time of the Hassidean movement prior
to the development of the strong sectarianism typical of first century
Judaism. Both Pharasees and Essenses seem to have developed from the
Hassidean Movement and cannot be typified as being of one or the other.
    But I propose that the Essenes preserved the drama, as it were, about
the Righteous teacher within the DSS (This is not to say they were the
exclusive contributors to that material!!). I can prove, not so much
through etymology, though I can produce a very good arguement, but rather
social culturally. Notice for example the similiar lifestyles and stress
on Brit Hasid in the Community Rule,for example. Please also keep in mind
the high probability that the Essenes probably never went by that name 
untill much later, and that similiar groups may have also gone by such a
name by ignorant or careless observers who used stereotypes to describe
these groups. Hence blowing any attempt in an etymological analysis into
oblivion, only confusing matters more as we attempt to stereotype ancient
stereotypes. This can also be true even with the Jewish sources, such as
Philo and Josephus. Not to say that they are totally unreliable, but
that they are not infaliable. Josephus, for example, compiled his work, he
did not write it. This caused several contradictions known to exist within
his works. He was dependant upon other works and assistance from others.
Manalaus, for example, is said to have been the son of Onias as well as a
Benjamite. Which is the real Manalaus?
   Remember also that the Essenes evolved from something and they
continued to evolve, perhaps into many forms, expressing themselves
differently,from place to place,from time to time, as many such religious
groups tend to do. Look at Protestantism for example.
   I can support my arguments only in terms of time and place. The
historical and geographical context in which a text or folk tradition was
created is crucial in the understanding of the nature of that material.
Philo is in Egypt and may never have been in contact with our Essenes in
the Judean Province. 
   Sorry, but I gave a very brief, over simplified, and broad outline of
my position. If you desire, I can give more details on specifics later
upon request, as many points you brought up I do agree with and we should
try to discuss those points on which we disagree. 


On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Stephen Goranson wrote:

> 	Bradley Harrison wrote of "Hassideans/Essenes at Qumran." But the
> Qumran Essenes were not Hassideans. The proposal that they were was based
> on an old assumption that Essenes evolved from the Asidaioi of 1,2
> Maccabees. But that assumption has been shown quite problematic by, e.g.,
> John Kampen in_The Hasideans and the Origin of Pharisaism: A Study in 1 and
> 2 Maccabees_ (Atlanta: Scholars, 1988).....