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At 09:25 04/08/97 +0000, stephen goranson wrote:
>To Y. Ben-David: I ask you to consider not using such inappropriate 
>words as "vendetta" (& I consider your flame of M. Jaffee way out of 

I respond to unprovoked insults with logic.  That's not flaming.  If it
isn't a vendetta then why exactly are you raking the coals to revive an
unfortunate incident here?  And why do you continue to write in a demeaning
vein ("imagining" Pseudo- Tzedoqim, mixing up history, etc.)?  Please adopt
more constructive pursuits and respectful discussion.

>I disagree with the *idea* that MMT is Sadducee. MMT's Essene, 
>IMO. I agree with R. Gmirkin that using "Sadducee" in the sense 
>Josephus used it is appropriate for Late Second Temple Period. 
>It is my 
>view that the modern invention of the term "pseudo-Sadducees" resulted 
>from mixing sources anachronistically and that its use results in 
>mixed-up history. 

Granted that *if* there are no Qumran Tzedoqim then justification for a
distinct "other (i.e., Pseudo-) Tzedoqim," evaporates.  Disagreeing and
arguing your own view is fine.  But the step between disagreeing and
demonstrating error in the view of Qimron, Sussmann, et al. is the imagined
part here.  I don't hold anything more than Qimron has presented.  (Doesn't
Schiffman also agree with Qimron on this?)  Do you represent that the
consensus of scholars agree with you that Qimron, Sussmann, et al. are in
error and that the consensus of scholars agree with you that MMT is not
Tzedoqim?  If not, the perceived definitions of Josephus are your
interpretations, which beg the question; and the need to account for, while
distinguishing consistently between, the two types of Tzedoqim remains.  In
any case, suggesting that views different from yours are "imagined" or
"mixing sources anachronistically" resulting in "mixed-up history" is
demeaning ad hominem which falls short of both logic and respectful
discussion.  If you're not harboring any vendetta, grinding some religious
axe, or presuming some superior intellect then how about dropping the
demeaning and insulting tone and adopting the demeanor of scientific inquiry?
Yirmiyahu Ben-David
Paqid 16, Qehilat Ha-Netzarim (Nazarene Jews)
Ra'anana, Israel