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Re: orion Orion Sadducees (MMT) et al, Part 1

At 13:42 17/07/97 -0500, Jack Kilmon wrote:
>    I realize that Hellenistic Christianity offends your religious
>construction in therevival of the Netzarim but I am attempting to be

Yet another assumption because you simply cannot grasp the logic of
substantiating instead of assuming.  This has nothing to do with offending
religious construction and everything to do with demonstrating the logical
validity of terms which are widely understood and carry significant and
unalterable meaning throughout the world.  You have not, and cannot,
establish any connection or continuity between "Christian" and the 1st
century Jewish sect which followed Yehoshua.  You may not paint them as
"Christians", proto or otherwise, without documenting and substantiating it.

> Without Y'shua and his immediate followers and Talmudaya, there would have
been no "Christians."

That's not so simply demonstrated either.  All that budding Hellenist
Christianity needed was the notion of a savior, which they could have gotten
just as easily from Bar Kokhva if they hadn't already settled on
reconfiguring an earlier model.  In fact, as the Romans were so successful
in displacement theology, they really didn't *need* the model; with the
destruction of the Beyt Ha-Miqdash they *could* even have held that Romans
had become "spiritual Israel" and made one of their own the "spiritual
messiah."  There's *literally*  countless alternative scenarios without
having to resort to the logical fallacy of confusing sequence with
cause-effect as you have done.  Distinguishable proto-Christians, that is
groups having characteristics identifiably Christian rather than Judaic --
rather than naked assumptions -- don't show up in the historical record
before 64 CE.  This is logic and history, not 'religious' considerations.

>we forget that these three sects were political as well.  I remind you
>that the founder of the Netzarim had little good to say about the stewards 
>of "legitimate Judaism" at the time, calling them a "nest of vipers," a stance 
>which in collaboration with the Roman overlords, got him killed.

This is so irretrievably beyond the bounds of Ori~n -- and logic,
scholarship, etc. -- that, unless the list moderator gives me specific
authorization, I will provide my response outside of Ori~n to whomever
wishes the information.  Simply email me privately.
BeVirkot Torah,

Yirmiyahu Ben-David
Paqid 16, Global Congregation of Nazarene Jews

Netzarim Virtual Community Center
Ra'anana, Israel

		Netzarim...  Authentic