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Re: orion Re: minim; Ib and II dating

At 16:13 27/05/97 -0500, Stephen Goranson wrote:
>Mr. Ben-David has misread my words. Of course I did not deny that
>various Jewish groups--including Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes--at
>various times criticized one another. I indeed consider several Qumran
>texts to be Essene texts in which the writer criticizes Pharisees and/or
>I have no problem with the quoted Enc. Jud. passage, though
>it relates to post-Qumran texts, and though, for a better and more

Mr. Goranson needs reminding exactly what he wrote:
>>Mr. Ben-David wrote:  "Each of the three groups *did*, in fact, refer to
>>each other as miynim."  [assuming he refers to Pharisees, Sadducees, and
>>Essenes and to minim]  This is not a fact.

The evidence I offered shows that use of the term was widespread and that
they did indeed refer to each other as miynim, as I said.

>Bavli Amoraic texts expands to non-Jews as well). Unless Mr. Ben-David
>can present new information, in no Qumran or contemporary ms case does >a
writer in Hebrew call a Jew a min, or a Jewish group minim, or accuse
>anyone of minut. I wrote that his assertion was not a "fact" and stand
>by that. 

Mr. Goranson also clearly needs reminding of my quote, also found above, as
he is rewriting my statement to dance around his misreading of what I wrote.
Perhaps you'll be so kind as to show forum participants where I stated it
was in the Qumran mss?  Since the only evidence provided so far indicates
widespread use of the term miyn, the onus therefore falls upon you to
dispute that evidence, not argue that lack of evidence in the Qumran scrolls
somehow proves your contradiction of the available evidence, which presently
is based solely on the authority of your unfounded assertion.

>It is possible that the word was used earlier than we know
>about. But we have no evidence to justify asserting this, and we have
>the known trajectory which suggests against it.

Beside the evidence in LXX demonstrating the early use of airesis contrary
to Mr. Goranson's assertion, the known trajectory is that offered in Ency.
Jud. -- that referring to each other as miyn was widespread-- not your
so-far- unsubstantiated assertion.  As a consequence of this evidence, it is
you who must show that this known trajectory wasn't true in the time period
you claim, that the widespread use suddenly appeared only later.  You must
also show when, where and how the sudden new use of the term sprang up, with
appropriate documentation.  So far you've offered only cavalier assertions
without any support or documentation except an argument of lack of evidence
in the Qumran mss.

>In my view, Mr.
>Ben-David has misunderstood aspects of the history of Pharisees,
>Sadducees, Essenes, and other Jewish groups.

I've offered evidence explicitly supporting my statement -- as opposed to
Mr. Goranson's misreading of it (inserting some reference to Qumran mss.
which I never wrote).  Then he incredibly asserts that "Mr. Ben-David has
misread my words"!  Uh-huh.

By contrast to my presenting evidence from LXX and Ency. Jud. that showed at
least plausible merit for my initial statement, which suggested that similar
practice was plausible during the time in question, Mr. Goranson has relied
on a lack of evidence in Qumran mss. and his own cavalier assertions -- and
then tried to dance around his error.  Here he makes another unsubstantiated
and cavalier declaration concerning some vague "aspects" he claims, without
substantiation, that I don't understand.  He fails to specify, much less
substantiate, what these aspects are; aspects which aren't appropriate for
this forum even if he were correct.  Unless Mr. Goranson claims that he has
no misunderstandings of *any* "aspects of the history of Pharisees,
Sadducees, Essenes, and other Jewish groups," singling me out is
irresponsible.  Mr. Goranson doesn't name or substantiate these "aspects" I
misunderstand because, in the main (I have some misunderstandings like
everyone except Mr. Goranson), he could not defend them.  Mr. Goranson's
"view" in this last instance is irresponsible, logically unfounded,
unscholarly, and inappropriate for this forum.  I'd appreciate sticking to a
logical, intelligent, and scholarly agenda appropriate to this forum.
Biy-V'rakhot Torah,

Yirmiyahu Ben-David
Paqiyd 16, Global Congregation of Nazarene Jews

Netzarim Viritual Community Center
Ra'anana, Israel

		Netzarim...  Authentic