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Re: orion Emmanuel

On Fri, 16 May 1997 12:56:44 +0800 (HKT), bilbo@hkstar.com writes:
>
>>Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 16:35:11
>>To: ioniccentre@hol.gr (Isidoros)
>>From: William David Poling <bilbo@hkstar.com>
>>Subject: Re: orion Emmanuel
>>
>>Friends,
>>     My apologies for my ineptitude at using the Net which resulted in some
>people getting gibberish and others getting nothing.  Originally, I was
>responding to a request for Jewish material on Emmanuel/Immanuel (Isaiah 7.14).
>>     The LXX of Isaiah 7.15 is not necessarily messianic, but does describe
>a moral prodigy:  "before he knows or chooses evil, he will choose the
>good."  The last two verbs are both infinitives in the MT.  The first is an
>infinitive in the LXX, but the second is future indicative.  Neither Aquila,
>Symmachus, Theodotian, or Syriac follow the LXX in this translation. 

     Of course not.  Their versions are late and the result of Rabbinic
     revision.

>>     At the following verse (7.16), the LXX is even more creative:  "before
>he knows either good or evil, he will refuse evil in order to choose good."
>This involves the addition of "good or evil" as well as "in order to."
>Needless to say, there are no other translations with such renderings.  Both
>verses alter the text along similar lines so that the child, Emmanuel, will
>choose good even before the age of accountability.

     You're trying to make an earlier version fit a later recension.

>>     Neither the Mishnah nor either Babylonian or Jerusalem Talmud mentions
>Emmanuel.  One might suspect this was due to its use as a Christian
>proof-text.  The Midrash Rabbah on Exodus (section 220 on 18.5) says that
>Emmanuel is another name for Maher-shalalhash-baz (Isaiah 8.3) and that both
>are names for Hezekiah.  The Midrash on Numbers (section 568 on 14.2) also
>uses the text to describe Hezekiah.  Further, it states that he was one of
>four people who learn to know God without the aid of a teacher.  The other
>three are:  Abraham, Job and the Messiah.  It is noteworthy that the MT text
>would not support such an interpretation, whereas the LXX would.  This might
>indicate a similar tradition of interpretation expressed in the LXX and in
>this midrash.  This does not support a Messianic interpretation of the text,
>only a semi-miraculous one.   Further, the midrashim are early Medieval,
>which means they are not very useful in determining Jewish beliefs at the
>dawn of the Era, unless an interpretation is tied to a datable rabbi.

   Not even then when we are dealing with 1st C. BCE texts.  The datable
   Rabbis are like quoting Virgil on the Iliad.  He knows a lot but it
   ain't current.

>>
>>I hope that this comes through clearly.     David Poling  
>>
>>At 06:28 PM 5/7/97 -0200, you wrote:
>>>>Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=3D"LXX.WPD"
>>>>Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=3D"LXX.WPD"
>>>>
>>>>Attachment converted: APXEIO =D0POE :LXX.WPD (????/----) (00005318)
>>>
>>>
>>>Dear William,
>>>
>>>though your post arrived at my HD, no Attachment appeared on my screen,
>>>or in any of my files - the search did not show up anything. Peculiar.
>>>
     Isidoros, I'm having a similar problem with my mailer and am dialoging
     with their techies.

Tom

>>>Would you kindly send me again this file, Attached - if your using Mac - or,
>>>better yet, within the body of post, as my Mac sometimes does not have
>>>the required software to read PC mailed Attachments. Thank you very much,
>>>enjoy,
>>>
>>>Isidoros
>>>The Ionic Centre
>>>ioniccentre@hol.gr