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Re: Calendar, MMT & Enoch (Combined)

>>>>On Greg's suggestion, Moshe Shulman has already pointed out the incongruity
>>>>of the priestly establishment "separating" from the people.
>>>This of course doesn't mean a totally isolating separation otherwise their
>>>priestly role would be rendered useless. The priestly observances that they
>>>were advocating and following were in themselves something that separated
>>Actually Ian, it does mean they seperated themselves from the temple service.
>You still haven't justified yourself and you take my idea of separation too
>lightly. By separation you should be able to imagine no personal communion,
>no discourse in public unless forced, avoidance in the temple, exclusion
>from everything possible. I haven't seen your grounds for separating
>themselves from the temple service at least at the time of writing MMT or
>even the Community Rule. You cannot seriously project ideas from perhaps
>centuries later into this situation. On what second century bce grounds can
>you talk of separating totally from the temple -- especially given the
>centrality of the temple to MMT? It seems unthinkable.

Ian, by saying that the actions of those priests would defile the temple, it
makes it impossible for them to take part. For example the differences in how
to make the red heifer would mean that this group would consider all those
'purified' by the ashes of the red heifer impure. They could not touch them
for fear of making other things impure. These ideas are a bit strange to us
today since they do not relate well to our daily experiences, but it would be
like someone who eats only kosher, and not eating with someone who did not eat
>On a totally unrelated matter (and saving a post):
>I would recognize a dose of ad hominem in the dss when talking of the
>opposition indulging in sexual activities with women during menstruation,
>making the practisers impure. I can't imagine that the wielders of such
>attacks went around spying on the offending events. But as always, ad
>hominem is a more effective means than logical discourse in the pursuit of
>demeaning the other person's position.

I am not sure as to what you are refering to here.
>Responding to Moshe Shulman who brings the 'red heifer' laws into the fray:
>>I am likewise not convinced on this, however the 'red heifer' laws are a
>>For those not familiar according to the Talmud they specifically made someone
>>who was a Tovel Yom do the ceremonies with regards to the red heifer. A Tovel
>>Yom was one who was unclean for a day period, and had already immersed in the
>>Mikvah, but the sun had not set on that day. They (the Pharisees and Rabbis)
>>held a Tovel Yom could perform the service involved with the red heifer. 4Q394
>>13-15 make it clear that they are in disagreement with this.
>What I can't see, Moshe, is that there is anything extra contained in these
>lines that hs not been said in Num 19:1-10, so are you arguing that MMT is
>later because of its statement regarding the procedures in dealing with the
>heifer? If so, is Numbers also late?
>I see no evidence that the lines "make it clear that they are in
>disagreement with " the later Pharisaic position.

Simple, MMT makes clear that they have a difference, and that the difference
is that according to the author(s) of MMT the person must wait until `RYWBWT
H$M$. The Rabbis required the person to go to the mikva by day, and then they
could do the service. (In fact they required the person to being impure, and
immerse in the Mishnah Parah 3.7). Their opponents (the Sadducees) required
specifically that they should wait until `RBY $M$.  This is the exact wording
here. It is a clear indication that MMT takes the view of the Sadducees (of
the Talmud) and their opponents are taking the view of the Rabbis/Pharasees. 

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   |        \/ /  \/ /       |     Moshe Shulman       |
   |        / /\__/_/\       | mshulman@ix.netcom.com  |
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