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Re: MMT & Moreh Tzeddek

On Sun, 24 Nov 1996 12:48:40 -0800  Moshe Shulman wrote:
>>On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:35:05 -0800  Moshe Shulman wrote:
>>>CD implies that Moreh Tzedik came about 20 years after the founding of 
>>>the sect. IF we say that MMT is from the Moreh Tzedik (which I am not
>>>so certain I have to look over the arguments again), this implies that 
>>>it predates CD, since the later implies the Moreh Tzedik is no longer 

>>If CD and MMT are talking about a different Moreh Tzedek how does that

>I am not sure I understand your question. If you are assumeing that the 
>Moreh Tzedik is the one who founded the community, then that is an error. 

Not at all.  I'm suggesting examining the approach that "the" Moreh
Tzeddek was the one who founded the community, but also that his
successors in the community were subsequently called the Moreh Tzeddek
as well, a title that passed to succeeding community leaders.  Maybe
this isn't plausible, but off hand I can't think of any reason why not?

Granted, too, there's no mention of the Moreh Tzeddek in MMT that I know
of either.  But, to me, it does sound like the leader of the community 
writing as the spokesperson of the community, "we," who, if the above is 
plausible, could therefore have been "a" Moreh Tzeddek, "the" *current* 
Moreh Tzeddek by this line of reasoning; but probably not the original 
Moreh Tzeddek.  Am I overlooking reasons why this succession of Morey 
Tzeddek couldn't have been?

>CD seems to imply that the people seperated and then the G-d provided the 
>Moreh Tzedik.

Agreed, this suggests to me that CD should be placed in the period when the 
Qumranian community was formed.

>As to the Moreh Tzedik and MMT I do not find him mentioned there at all. 
>There has been speculation that he was the author, but if he is not 
>mentioned there at all then I see no reason why that has to be the case.

Also agreed.  But others can make the argument that *maybe* he did, why 
*couldn't* he?  I don't think the arguments *against* the MTz writing MMT 
are very strong either.  It seems to me that the discussion of whether
the Moreh Tzeddek wrote MMT or not is, given present information, 
intractable.  But, if this succession of titles is plausible, it (1) 
eliminates seeming conundrums about when the original MTz must / could
have lived [since there would then have been several, living in different 
times] and (2)then the "if the MTz did write MMT" and "if the MTz didn't 
write MMT" scenarios demonstrate nothing whatsoever about when MMT was 
written.  We could abandon a line of search into whether the MTz wrote
MMT that seems both intractable and unproductive?

>Since 'Moreh' means 'teacher' I don't see what you are trying to claim as
>having any basis.

Where did I make any claim in this regard at all?  I noted the parallel
and wondered.  I still wonder.  The Teymaniy tradition is the most like
the ancient Jewish tradition of anything on the planet.  Moreh also meant 
teacher for the Qumranians.  I don't understand the logic of your 
objection.  I'd think that if a search were made and failed to turn up the 
introduction of this usage in the Teymaniy community *then* (I haven't made 
such an investigation), though it would admittedly be slight, nevertheless, 
if no contradictory evidence surfaced, the weight of evidence of this 
tradition would perceptibly tilt toward the likelihood of a connection.  If 
the introduction of this usage into the Teymaniy community were documented 
then it would turn out to be a more recent tradition introduced into the 
Teymaniy community -- almost certainly from another Jewish community 
somewhere, and still likely tracing back, though more indirectly, to 
ancient traditions -- hence, still a connection.

No matter how you cut it, it seems that the Qumran tradition was part of 
the overall Judaic tradition of the period.  That connections like this 
would trace through the centuries and exist in Judaism today is hardly
far- fetched.  It seems far more fanciful to imagine that, alternately, 
somewhere, sometime, the Teymaniy community got the idea of calling their 
teacher "Moreh" from green gals in a blue UFO while the Qumran community 
got their idea of calling their teacher "Moreh Tzeddek" from purple guys
in a white UFO.

If we can't wonder questions on this list such as whether a connection 
might exist between the Teymaniy tradition and the Qumran tradition, is 
that scientific inquiry?  Proposed answers should rightfully be given the 
third degree, but questions?

Kol tuv,

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07:41:08 Y'rushalayim Time, 11/25/96
Yirmiyahu Ben-David, Paqiyd 16; Ra'anana, Israel
Q'hiylat Ha-N'tzarim
(Global Congregation of Nazarene Jews)

N'tzarim Virtual Community Center:

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